Printed in the U.S.A. All rights reserved.
Jeanne P. Stubbs
University of North Carolina
at Charlotte
The following interview occurred as a demonstration at an International Forum for the Person-Centered Approach. Bob Lee, the therapist in the interview, has been practicing client-centered therapy for twenty-five years and volunteered to conduct a demonstration. As a result of the context of the demonstration, the international population present at the Forum, and the simulation of the exchange of ideas, this interview was an opportunity for the participants of the Forum to observe the demonstration and late to participate in the discussion of their observations.
The process of providing this transcript included transcribing the actual demonstration interview and the discussion following the interview. Additionally, both participants, the therapist and the client, were invited to submit comments about the experience. Upon reading the transcript and ensuing discussion, both declined to offer additional thoughts and observations.
CL = Client
TH = Therapist
CL When you announced it this morning, I thought I would take this opportunity and I refused to think about it from when you said it so it's about a great feeling I have, which I want to explore. I don't know how ready I am for it, but still I am interested in exploring. The way I know that feeling is I want to give up my house, my car, my job. The other day I've found a word that was not in my vocabulary before was "Walk About."
TH Walk About?
CL Walk About. I was told that it was the Australians that used that word. Did you know that?
TH Yes, Walk About.
CL In some ways that contains some of my feelings. Still I don't know what it is about but just to give up all those things. Also the job at the University.
TH So I hear that you have a feeling it seems to be a pretty deep feeling, certainly a very important feeling that the name for it is "Walk About" and that there is more to it than you know at this time. And that somehow removing the car, the house some of those things to allow this.
CL Also my wife, I'm married.
TH So your parents are included.
CL I said my wife.
TH I'm sorry, what did you say?
CL I said my wife.
TH Oh your wife, okay, thank you.
CL And maybe I also know it in the sense that a lot of the things I'm doing also, run therapy groups and encounter groups. And nearly whatever I'm doing in my path I know that I can do it. And there is no more challenge in it for me. I still don't like it, it's not fair but
TH It's no challenge in it?
CL No, No.
TH I don't hear it as reacting to something, what you've been doing; but it's more a natural action that is working for expression that for the time being the name like Walk About is to ...
CL Like you said it is not a reaction.
TH No.
CL Because it isn't.
TH No.
CL There is another area in my life that has been causing me trouble. It may have something to do with it except I don't know. I have been at University for 22 years and I have been doing a lot of social work and administration work at times and I'm not sure, it is an excuse or whatever. But I have had trouble in writing things which I am supposed to do. Half of my time is for doing research and writing about this. And it is very difficult for me. I can easily count the things that I've been writing through those years. So in a way I have stopped the truth. But in a way, at least recently, I sort of speak, can hide myself in this administration so I have to compensate for this writing difficulty.
TH Right.
CL I would like to write and inside me I have a feeling that it is going to happen, someday. As other things might happen but it is just ... I'm longing for that day.
TH Yes, yes. And I hear a distinction between that day that will happen where you can write to Walk About and the contrast with the writing that you should do. This is not that at all.
CL No.
TH No, this is a natural kind of expression that you feel is there waiting to be expressed. And there is a longing for that and for a sense of that. As I feel you are feeling the affect part of that.
CL I would like to get rid of those materialistic things and just be, sort of speak, naked. It comes to my mind, many years ago, maybe 15 years ago, when I to go to the University I used to have a big bag with all my books and notes in it, and I remember the day I decided not to bring it with me just to be me. I like that, haven't done it since.
TH A metaphor that comes to my mind is that metaphorically you were bringing this you with this bag; that was the symbol, and when you let that go you were letting go of some of that extra that you were carrying.
CL I didn't need it.
TH You don't need it.
CL It even made it more difficult for me to be there because I kept thinking about what was in my bag.
TH Right, right, right!
CL Instead of being there.
TH Right! Right! It was like the thinking about what was in the bag was taking the place of being there, in allowing just being.
CL I think that had something to do with what I started out to do.
TH Yes, yes! Yes! I see that too. It's still vague for me, but it's there. I see its all connected with the Walk About.
CL Excuse me, can I have some watei-? I'm so dry.
TH Oh! Could we have some water, please? (long distraction, getting water)
CL So in that sense, I also know it as a feeling about giving up, giving something up, like the bag. And I feel if I give that up I will reach, I will come to that loneliness point, I will come to myself sort of speak.
TH It's like releasing these things that you've been talking about that is metaphorically in the bag, putting it, putting it down, will allow yourself, come to yourself, your being to be.
CL Yeh. There are situations at the University in which I feel closer to that point; that is when I have encounter groups with students. In that situation, I feel closer, I’m not right there, I'm not quite there but I'm closer to it. I always used to talk about that as my lifeline. Particularly with the students.
TH That was your line to your life - this life of being that you are talking about.
CL Yes!
TH And I'm hearing you that there is something though operating in you that finds it difficult to give up, to allow, that's working there too.
CL Yes.
TH Even though you cherish that lifeline to your students and that opportunity, there is something else that, it's like it has a life and it - I'm starting to think it's like it wants to live too, and it kind of has to die or be released for the other to be allowed. Like two lives competing or something.
CL Yes, and I keep wondering what is it.
TH Yes. The car is part of it, wife, I think you said, the school. There's a lot of things that are a part of that, that go into making up the life. The other life. But it's nameless, you don't have a name for it. It seems that Walk About is the name the general name for the others.
CL It sounds good from me, but for- yourself it's like what is that?
CL l know that Walk About thing in some situations, when I think about it, being together with other people, for instance the encounter group, being together with other- people. If I say that I'm going to do this and I will be back at 3 o'clock, they know me, that doesn't mean that I'm back at 3 o'clock. Because there might be something that I want to be. So I will come home maybe 2 hours late, maybe 3 hours late. So I see that as a kind of Walk About.
TH Yes, that's freedom. That's freedom, is that the word. I hear freedom in that. And the other seem more like even in your instructions I will be back at 3 o'clock seems like a requirement of our daily living, your daily whoever you happen to be with, but then when you're out there and you're freer imagining with others and in all situations this freedom with your time seems to come into play. And that's like a Walk About.
CL That's like a Walk About. (pause) It is also as if I have to make an excuse for doing this Walk About. It is not just as I said to say that. They have learned me through the years. They know me through the years. So that's the time you wish to be back, but there is another time. But still I feel that I have to excuse that I do it in that way. I'm not quite sure if I have to excuse it to the people outside me or to something inside me.
TH Yes, like we could find reasons to provide excuses to people outside or they might even ask us for reasons. But your concern tends to more on the side of what of that am I doing inside of me.
CL Think so, think so.
TH And I need that to make that excuse to myself.
CL Yes, I think so, I think I realize that more and more that it is more inside of me than out there. So that in a sense it is me myself who is doing -
TH Right, right. That's what's really coming through to me that proposal for that name of that inside part that we're looking for where "walk about" is me, myself. It's myself that I have to be accountable to in turn of some of these things. And what is that about - is that part of the question?
CL Yes, that's part of the question, but I don't have any answer for that. I don't have any answers because that's the part where loneliness is coming in. I want to give in, I want to give up.
TH Okay, I'm afraid to give up. There's a part of me that feels fear to give up.
CL Yes.
TH To that a part of me somehow values that. There is something about that, that I really value. A part of me is just like fear. I started to sense okay, what is that I, me, myself, am doing. Well that's unknown, I guess....
CL Yes, it's true, it goes with fear. And it goes with thinking about all what it will mean, all what it will cost, or what will friends say, what does everybody say. And yet when we are talking, then I think it's not so much what they are thinking, it's more what 1, what I will say to it. Because I think I know more and more that the people outside me would appreciate it. Get that "walk about." I feel that. Also it is coming strong from my friends and also from my students that they really want me to do it. So I keep wondering why is it so difficult for me to do it?
TH Because I am afraid. While I like their encouragement, I feel welcomed to be more of who I am. Natural, naked, afraid. (Silence)
CL How come that I am afraid? I know that I do a good job at the university. Even in the demonstration part, but mainly in the Encounter Group, as indicated. I know that. I know it, people come to me. So why is it I am afraid of expressing and expressing, exposing, that to you know, ah, because I am afraid of that. I have some answers to that question. Still don't help me very much. The answers are that I am in the university where the way a person thinks is not appropriate, it's not scientific, it's not in sync with science. That's what the answer is really about. So ... And the correct used to ask is what is it you listen are doing in that room? I have a room where I have the Encounter Group, but there is no furniture except chairs. So what are you doing there, knowing that we are here shouting and things like that.
TH Very odd, and bizarre and strange?
CL Yes. So I invite them, why don't you come and look for yourself at what's going on. And then they refused. So in that sense, I think I'm in a vulnerable position. So, this could give me an idea, I'm not writing something to understand why I'm not writing. But still I don't quite in myself accept that. Because I also found out talking more about it also is not so much. Also to my knowledge I found out that they respect me. So it isn't so simple that. . . actually they express a need to know what it is I'm doing.
TH Right.
CL So seeing this, I mean, so I know that it is not outside things, but it's here.
TH Okay, a new word that you introduced is I'm vulnerable. I was thinking how does it feel to be vulnerable, vulnerable. That I'm also, inside, not just with respect to them because they, when I think about it, kind of endorse what I am doing. Even though they do not understand, the fact to me again is that feeling of vulnerability that I have to deal with in spite of them ... Vulnerable means what to you? Open, exposed, what does it. . . ?
CL Yes, I think it means to make myself visible.
TH Oh, okay. To make yourself visible.
CL Yes.
TH Ah, to make myself visible.
CL For myself and for the others.
TH Okay, and I'm afraid of that? Do they go together?
CL I think they do.
TH Okay what is it about making my self visible to others and to myself scares me?
CL I don't know. I have a big sign on my wall in my study room saying "I Take Myself Out Of The Possibility To Make Myself Into The Reality." I always thought that was funny. (Laugh).
TH To remind you of that you're afraid to do that but that is what I would like to do. That is very important.
CL Yes! And I get closer and closer to that when I'm working in the encounter group, with my students.
TH That's your lifeline.
CL Yes, Yes! (Pause) I think this is something kind of core that is being afraid. And to express myself, to make myself visible.
TH Yes, to make myself visible. Seems like it ... seems like the fear is linked to that, an inextricable linkage. So I'm entertaining now, what is it about that I am afraid of, making myself visible. I'm vulnerable.
CL I really don't like that word.
TH Okay.
CL I feel I like the other pail, that I'm afraid of making myself visible.
TH Yes, okay.
CL I feel like that.
TH Yes, okay. Stay with that, making myself visible.
CL Coming to that point ... I don't know what to say. I mean, I know what I could say but I'm afraid of being accepted, afraid of being refused or things like that. But it's just words.
TH That's right. It's something much more profound, much more core, much more substantive than just saying I'm being approved or disapproved . . . that seems too shallow, too superficial.
CL So asking myself at that point it is as I breathe a kind of emptiness, although I know there is something behind it just I can't recall - So I can't answer your question longer than that.
TH No! NO! But there is something about that emptiness that seems significant that youjust said that was worth asking that question. And knowing that the superficial answers for you aren't significant or valuable but that emptiness there seems somehow very valuable and there is something beyond that. But you seem to have to go through that to get to the beyond that. And is that the fear?
CL Yes. And is that the fear?
TH Please go slow, if I'm going too fast for you ...
CL I don't know if that's the fear, or your description of it.
TH Right, that is what you're saying yes to. You've come to the point of emptiness. There's a void, there's a vacuum. And you have the sense of if you can go through that or beyond that, there's this other?
CL Yes, I know it.
TH Oh, okay. So you know that?
CL I know that.
CL That's a good description of it.
TH Yes.
CL As I said before, I know I'm going to write someday. I know I'm going to make myself visible, someday. I'm longing for that day and that may be that vacuum that you're talking about. I have to, in some way, come through that door.
TH Right.
CL But I know it will happen.
TH Right. I have a hunch of something. Let me give it to you. That that void or that vacuum is invisible. That you've got to be invisible. Really, be invisible? And then you can get through it, someway. That's what I started to see. I'm like I am you now. I'm really and I'm saying "Boy feels like I've got to really ... I'm afraid of that. And I've got to embrace this”.
CL So what you're saying is that instead of being visible. But in being afraid to be visible, you kept yourself invisible.
TH No. I was hearing you say that you're afraid to be visible, but in being afraid to be visible, you kept yourself invisible.
CL Yes, that's true.
TH See. I got a sense that this was that invisibility. This void, this vacuuming, this nothingness. Nothingness. Not visible.
CL Okay.
TH I don't know.
CL So I'm afraid.
Silence
CL Maybe it also is, it's more . . . situation areas. This force penetrating this area. I don't know but being that it's an administration job ... in a sense I am invisible, but I make myself visible in trying to capture all the things that . . . And sometimes I think that it's okay you know that those people wanted it this way and those people wanted it this way and so on, so on. And out of this comes some kind of ... what is the word?
TH Integration?
CL Yes. That's okay. And then there is another situation where I say okay that's what they think about this. What do you think about it? Would you dare to come out first before they would. And I've done that. And it has went on very well each time. So it is that I'm ... in that way trying, so to speak, to do that to help myself to go through this.
TH So what I hear is that by being an administrator, by hiding you said a while ago in that, you're escaping in that you're visible. But not the way that you would like to be visible. Which is who you truly are. Which is your Walk About. But there are times especially with your students in your group where they act as a lifeline. That other part of you is made visible.
CL And it also was in some cases in the administration part.
TH And it also has happened there and it's been okay with them and it's still okay with you. And it seems like this emptiness or this void or this vacancy and vacuum you have to go through to do that. It's like a rite of passage. Like something you have to pass through all alone all by yourself. The risk. To come out on the other side. You may or may not be successful. Although you have had times when you've felt "gee, they accept me" who I really am - that's fine.
CL It also is as I said that the administration thing to hide myself. Ifs also as if I have found a way to do this thing very well. And I do that very well. And when I am appreciated for what I am doing it is as if then it gives me a little place to do some experimentation with myself cause now I have all that acceptance then there will be space for trying. So that's the way I in common think about myself. Not only in the administration part but in my life. It's as if 1, so to speak, first establish this acceptance than I give myself a little, a channel to try something else.
TH It's like you need visible in the way that there is an acceptance in this visibility. People know you, who talk with you - the administrator, the husband or whatever. By realizing that they accept me, feel apart of that, then you are able to also experiment and experiment with the other visibility. Who you truly are. Who you really are. The Walk About.
CL So it is that I spend a lot of time establishing this acceptance. And there will only be a small time for the other.
TH Yes, Right. So what I'm getting is that the fear of visibility isn't the acceptance visibility. To do what you have to do to be visible that way and sort of be a part of. It's this visibility. (pause) I still am trying to get what I'm afraid of this, I'm still trying to understand. I'm afraid though of being more visible this way than I am, I mean I'm doing it to some degree.
CL I have to be a little more - I'm not ready to put that question into myself about fear. I have to be a little more out there.
TH I got you. (Silence)
CL The only thing that keeps coming to my mind is words to that question. I often say that it is as if I try to reach myself from out there. So once I read the first sentence of a book, it is as if I try to reach myself from out there. So I ask myself, what is it that I am teaching in the encounter group? What is it that I'm teaching? Although teaching isn't the word for it but . . . I'm not teaching, but what is it that I want the other person to want, to help the other person learn, to be aware of?
TH So to facilitate their learning.
CL Yes. I use that to ask, Could it be what you try to help them - Is that the same question for you? And if I should answer that question, How we can do that through the words? I mean -
TH The word is not the thing that what you're trying to say. And I heard you say you try to reason yourself out here and it doesn't work. I also heard that you understand that in terms of words, in terms logic, rationale, but you also understand that maybe tacitly or some other way, that's not it, it doesn't work. And you started by saying only words come to my mind. And I felt like you were saying that isn't going to help me.
CL Yes. I can say the words. I've done that.
TH Countless times. Right.
CL So the words would be, is it a question about accepting myself? Is it a question about feeling the right to be me? The man behind the emptiness. That's the word. Could it be that? And it could be that ... ?
TH Right. That you're entertaining that as a question that needs to be answered. So there is the appearance of you. The visibility of you. And then there's this other visibility of you that you'd like to be more of and it seems like letting go this visibility of you. Like you do at times with administration, to get acceptance, you could be more of this other over here. And there's a passage in there, a place you have to go alone. You have to pass through without any permission. Like no one can walk with you to go there.
CL And the point is not so that I know what's there.
TH No Walk About. Walk About.
CL It might be the same, there. So it's not something specific that you come to that place.
TH But I heard freedom is there. I heard that somehow in terms of this visibility is different from that and similar to freedom.
CL Tht freedom has to do with that did this come from me, from inside?
TH Right, not from outside. There wasn't anything anybody could do for you or do against you. It's something that is manifested in here. There it is.
CL So when you say fear. I would like that and could make it useable for me, but it's not there.
TH But you're there enough to entertain it. I heard you entertain it. I'm not ready to embrace that. To go into that. And you would like to. I feel like we've reached a place where we can stop. Are you there, too? Or do you have a little more.
CL Yes. I think we can stop. It's okay. Thank you.
Following the demonstration the observers and participants were asked to discuss their reactions to the session. The discussion was as follows:
P = Participants From Audience
TH = Therapist
TH The way I'd like to do it is I'll give my client and myself a few moments to talk about what it felt like to be together and, whatever comes to mind. And then we'll open it up to all of you. So would you like to begin, or I can? Whichever.
CL I could begin by saying that it was very comfortable being with you. I had confidence in you, I was very, very comfortable. And I felt that I had the freedom that I wanted to explore. I also felt the things you were saying, trying to give back to me what you heard, were meaningful for me. So I thought you understood me. I felt that I was in good hands, and you really were there for me. So it was a good experience, and I am glad that I could get it ... not that I was afraid of it. But just right afterwards it struck me that doing that, ok. . . (laughter) (pause)
TH Let's see, what was it like for me? (pause). Generally I felt very, very comfortable with you. I feel like we've had an affinity since we were on the boat, since we actually met in a church a while ago. So I found it a surprise that you were the one who was to be my client, and yet I don't think it was a surprise.
Something about the process, at times I tended to start to go too fast. And I want to say what that is as part of the pedantic part of this meeting now 'cause I want people to be free to be pedantic, so I'll start. That's myself excited and enthusiastic because I say, "Oh, I see what it is." Be quiet and wait. Let you see whatever you see that it is. Sometimes I get very excited, and I don't know. Feel free to comment if you ever felt that. That there were times when I wanted to say "Oh, looky, looky, look what's here." And then I found myself, it was rather smooth ...
CL I didn't feel that way.
TH Oh, okay.
CL At times you were going to say something, but as soon as you realized that I wanted to say something you gave me the chance.
TH Yes.
CL So I didn't feel that.
TH Yes, okay.
CL There might even have been some occasions that I wanted you to be a little more, say a little more.
TH Yes, yes. (pause) So that was one of my feelings at times. I was just calm, and I would just be calm and sort of wait. In recent years, I find something naturally happening that happened with me and you, that I am you. There's a point where it isn't like, this is kind of corny, but like is this what you're saying or I hear you say. I lose all that and I feel like I'm saying "Ah, this is how it is for us, for me," because I am you. But I always feel like I know it is you, not me, and what you say. We have to use your words and your feelings and all that, but I really feel right there with you. And I did. And it takes a while. It took me a while before that occurred, but I know that occurred. I know that. I think what that is, is I allow, 1, me, "I" became invisible. And the other became visible in terms of what we talked about. For me that's that other, if you will. We talked about the other and the self dropped away. (pause) Okay, I need to see if I have anything else to say. I mean I may be finished. (pause) So thank you for sharing your willingness to do that. So let's open it up.
P I think that did happen, and it was a very good demonstration, the confusion that caused that being the client, where the client had to take some time to try and understand you instead of you understanding the client. Quite a job you do, I can tell you that. In process, you got so far ahead of your client, then you came back.
TH Exactly. And I sensed all that,
naturally, and that brought me back. The natural response to that brought me
back.
P I just found myself saying "Damn
it, why doesn't he stay with the uncertainty that the client seems to be
experiencing at this time instead of getting ahead."
P Just the same point. It seemed to
me, partially I think because it is a demonstration or what have you, that you
were trying to help him solve problems. You started out with a feeling of doubt.
What is the doubt, or what is the gap. You try to help him solve those things
instead of just sitting with the doubt or the gap or what have you, long enough
for him to generate something from it. And I can understand it with it being a
demonstration. And I think that is a little of what you had to say.
P I recognize things that I can do myself, and I am very happy that you gave me the opportunity to see whatever I recognize. I don't need to add something to it. It gives me a lot of thinking and also it gives me a lot of cleaning up. That's one problem I face when I work with clients. Sometimes I feel I see what's happening like you said also, and to find the words or to find the intervention to also have efficient work. I sometimes think it costs me hours to have a client realize what's happening at this moment, to find the right intervention, efficient, and still have the client be there and not me. And that's a point that's always different and I have to find out, and it's also got me thinking of how to do it, have an idea of what's happening to the client, not me. Let the client discover it but not in such a long time. Try to get it in a short time. Do you know what I mean?
TH Yes.
P And I am amazed at some people being able to do that in two words or three And I have seen demonstrations of how it looks so simple. But it seems to be awfully difficult. (pause) I think you've gone a long way in this. I think you've gone far. It is not something that's bothering me, but I think about it a lot. And it is not something you can read in a book or ... You just have to find it for yourself, I mean I have to find it for myself.
TH One note is that each one of us comes to each other. If you don't mind, sometimes I'll remove it from, say, this session/demonstration to just life with our pre-conditions. And one of our pre-conditions is our knowledge. And what I've learned through the years is that I truly don't know where any of you are going, need to go, want to go, should go. We don't know. You've taught me that. People just like yourselves have taught me that, because I have stumbled and bumbled and been clumsy and awkward for years and I have learned that. And I have been a slow learner, in fact it has taken me as long as it's taken to learn what I've learned. And I keep learning. So a short way I can put, in terms of responding to some of the things that you are saying is raising a question too. It's that I truly don't know how I'm going to live my life or how you're going to live your life, or how it should or ought to be lived. I don't have the faintest idea. So the short way I put it is, I don't care what I think when I sit down with you or when I listen to my wife, or my daughter. I don't care what I think as they talk. I want to hear what they think. I need to not care what I think if I'm going to hear them. But when it comes to listening to any of you, if I start thinkina I know you, I'm going to be interfering each moment of the way to understanding.
TH (turning to the client) I'd like to talk about, you remember at the very beginning, you said "We're too close, let me move back." That's part of that "you're too close, you're getting too close." And he just did it. But I noted that right away in terms of our being together. But it was just natural. It was like there was a beginning of a setting of a tone or a kind of music that he was going to play. (pause) At times you moved up closer, he just got up here closer to me. And it was like a dance in a way that was going on. I find that once I needed to draw attention to that. Today I don't. I don't find the necessity of that anymore. It is a much more natural, fluid flow of that.
P When you said it's like I'm you, that preempted the bit where I think you jumped ahead of him. And that was immediately fit where you had to explain what you meant so the client could understand. And after that you stopped using the I and you went back to you. So it was like you could put more distance between the closeness that had been there before.
TH Oh, absolutely! And that's what happened. And that's because I'm afraid of you. And my own development. One participant talked about delivering his paper, and his concern that everyone might dislike him because of some of the view he had to share. Well, I do too. And so I get kind of scared, not as scared. One day that will dissipate from me. By talking like this, by you bringing it up, by doing this. I still get scared about "I am you and you are me." But I'm in it. But it is scary to me to be with people and share that. But I still feel the need, to explain. I still want to explain at times. Because I don't trust myself with you to that degree, that's part of it.
CL I would like to respond to that, what you said, to give my view about this demonstration. Because it's true what I felt, that I was stumped because I had to try to understand what it was that you were trying to tell me. That's true. And it is stopping me. But it is also true that I'm helped in that he is trying to understand me. That felt good.
P I'm glad you said that, because it seems to me that clients are pretty forgiving if you really try to listen and respond in that way and enrich the presence. And that's been my experience. And part of that seemed in the interview that there was a presence between you.
P I was thinking of the paper that was given yesterday, because we were looking then at the effect that the observer has on the object. It seems to me that we all, I mean, I like to do this with my students where one person's the client and several people come in just to keep the counselor going. But you see the affect that different people have on the client, and what different issues that come up for them because of who they're with. And I think that this is crucial. They have us, they have who we are and how we are, as much as it can be there. And I'm just thinking that, I mean what happened with you two, would it happen with me, or would something else happen? So I think it is so much more complicated that just looking at the method. It's like, of course you all do it differently, of course it can be a different experience. And for me here, if it is client-centered, because we can all do it differently, and have different styles. And it can be good. And if it is chent-centered, that's the other part of the jigsaw.
TH She learns there is room for different styles. But the question at the end is, is it client centered?
P I mean it has to be unique. Because otherwise you would have people being .... I have also a fear of people trying to be like somebody else.
P There's an interesting point from my perspective on what happened here. Several people have talked about the possibility of a mistake. So the first thing that goes through my mind, but the question that's in my mind is the possibility that it is those moments which are the most therapeutic. Because it is in those moments that the client ... it is an altruistic moment.
CL We were trying to reach each other. It became in another sense real.
P It was like you both just struggled in that minute to make sense of something together.
TH Well, just before I came I wrote like a poem, and it’s called "Transcending Relationship" because that's what happens. And then you're unconditional and then you're all in all. And that's healing, whole, wholesome, hearty, healthy. (pause) Okay, thank you very much for your time. (applause)
The editors of the journal would like to extend an invitation to the readership to respond to transcripts and discussion of the interviews. This opportunity would afford open interchange in the journal.
1. Transcription of the interview and discussion have been the work of two students enrolled at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. These students are Alethea L. Jenkins and Lisa Eaves.