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Interview with Mrs. H Concerning
Her Therapy with Carl Rogers
Barbara Temaner Brodley, Ph.D.
The following interview of Mrs. H, about her recollections
of her therapy with Carl Rogers, took place on February 7th, 1996. A mutual friend had
mentioned to me that Mrs. H had been Rogers’ client in the early 1950s. I had known
Mrs. H socially in 1950-51, but had not seen her since that time until the interview. When
I called her, she was glad to hear from me, agreed to do the interview, and gave
permission for its publication. She reviewed the transcript and asked that speech
mannerisms and repetitions be omitted. I also have omitted some comments about myself
elicited by Mrs. H. It should be obvious from the transcript that the interview is not a
therapy interview but an information seeking interaction. Some of my responses also
reflect our social relationship. Mrs. H. was suffering from cancer and receiving
chemotherapy treatments at the lime of the interview. She was not well, but was stimulated
and in happy spirits while we talked. She died from the cancer a year after the interview
THE INTERV!EW
Mrs. H: Ahh. She has a list of questions (laughing).
Barbara: Yeah. (H: Laughs.) I made this (referring to a
list) just to help me help your memory.
H: Mhm hm.
B: It’s precious of you to do this. I appreciate it.
H: Oh, not at all. As a matter of fact I’m almost
embarrassed by it because I remember so little of it. (Pause)
Go ahead.You start.
B: Well the first question is for your spontaneous
recollections. What do you remember about your experience with Carl Rogers. What stands
out for you?
H: What stands out is that I found him a very.. .You know,
I was very young at the time. In my early 20’s.. . I found him a very receptive
and kind personality. For someone like me who always felt threatened by someone
that I thought was... (B: Authority?) authority or more important. more intelligent
or something like that. (B: Mhm hm) I was taken by his gentleness. I wasn’t afraid of
him.
B: Mhm hm, mhm hm. Whereas you might have been. You felt
you were prone to be, or could be...
H: Oh very easily intimidated (B: Mhm hm)
by someone like that. . .(B: Mhm hm) who already had some...I
don’t know if it’s fame (B: Mhm hm) or some reputation is more
like it. (B: Mhm him Yes, yes.) And, uh I’m trying to recall, whether I read
something about him. I think that’s the way it must have happened, because I
can’t remember how I got to him.
B: Ah.. .that was one of my questions. I was wondering...
H: I don’t know. I
don’t know how I got to him. I must have read something.
(Brief interruption of the interview)
B: Do you remember what year
it was that you saw him? Was it before we were acquainted?
H: No it might have [been] after. It was the early
fifties.
B: Early fifties?
H: I think so.
B: You went down to the South Side...
H: I went to the University. (University
of Chicago Counseling Center). And I still remember. He sat at this desk, (B: Mhm hm) and
he wore glasses. Right?
B: Yes, he did.
H: It’s amazing that I remember that. And I would sit
opposite him. And he would ask me all kinds of questions. And I would answer. And I
wasn’t as timid as I thought I was going to be. (B: Mhm hm) Because I was going
through a very difficult period. I’d been married. I had gotten married to S.
And I didn’t know what was in store for me (laughs).
B: Mhm hm.
H: He came from
a very highly possessive family and had a very possessive relationship with his brother. Very.
B: Mhm hm.
H: I was very
close to my sister. We’re both middle children. We were four girls.
B: Mhmhm.
H: My sister, whom I lost about 16 years ago, and I were
very close. We had all the same interests, we were...
(Brief interruption of the interview.)
H: So ah...
B: You had been close to your...
H: Yeah, but not in the same way.
B: Not in the same way S was.
H: Not in the possessive
way that he and his older brother were. They started the firm together, but they were like
this. (She demonstrates by crossing her fingers
tightly.) (Pause) When I came into the marriage as a young girl, his brother
was already married and his wife was a very powerful woman. Very strong. Very strong
willed. She terrified me. She just terrified me. I was not what I am
today. (B: Mhm hm) I was very meek, and frightened of personalities like that. (B: Mhm hm)
And I didn’t know how I was going to handle it. (B: Mhm hm) So I realized that I had
to do something.
B: You came into a family.. .when you
married. . .into a family situation that was intimidating and
different.
H: Very intimidating.
B: And that’s what
led you...
H: (Nods) But
- more than that it’s the relationship between the two
brothers. (B: The brothers...) Because I was still the outsider.
B: You were the out...
H: Mhm hm, I was the outsider.
B: They were so close that you felt
outside...
H: They were just like...a triumvirate.
(B: Mhm hm) I don’t know if you know relationships like that. I don’t know
whether it’s a Jewish thing, I really don’t know. Um, I’m
sure it happens in all Mediterranean families...(B: Mhm hm) like Italians and Greeks -
where there are very close family ties. (Pause.) I came from a close
family. (B: Mhm hm) But I came from a family where independence was
emphasized.
B: I see.
H: When I was very young, and when I
finished school, I was able to go to New York and live with my sister. Because my mother
let me do it. She let us do it. . And of course, at that
time nobody was afraid of anything you know (laughs). But in this case it was more
than that. (B: Mhm hm) It was a very neurotic relationship. (B: Mhm hm) Extremely
neurotic.
B: Urn hum. It hurt you
and you felt closed out to a certain extent.
H: Oh it was terrible. As
a young woman, early in my twenties... (B: Mhm hm) I realized something terrible
was happening there (B: Mhm hm) that I couldn’t handle. it was like three against
one.
B: I see. (Pause) Who was the
third?
H: The third was the wife
of.. (B: Oh, his wife.) My sister-in-law or his...
B: His sister-in-law. Oh, so it was
the three...
H: Who was much
older than I was. (B: That’s the triumvirate.) She was much older than I was. (B: Mhm
hm) She was tough. (B: Mhm hm) She used (laughs) the kind of language that’s used
today with nobody flinching. (B: Mhm hm) I mean, she would say "fuck". (B: Mhm
hm.) At that time? To say that?
B: At that time. That was unusual.
H: She would use a language...(B: She was
very aggressive.) that was never used... (B: Mhm hm) That’s right.
Never used in my house. (B: Mhm hm) Ever. I never heard language like that.
B: Just that (laughs).
H: That absolutely overwhelmed
me. I didn’t know how to handle it. Yet there was another side to her. Eventually
I was able to become a friend of hers. She wrote poetry. She was an avid reader. She
wasn’t a stupid woman. (B: Mhm hm) But she was tough.
(B: Mhm hm) And she had been in politics. I mean she was really tough.
(Both laugh.)
B Really tough. And you were...
H: And I was frightened. So (B:
That’s when...) I read something about...
B: Mhm hm.
H: I mean the very fact that he was
willing to see me was an amazing stroke of good luck for me
because.. .I don’t even know how I did it. I don’t remember whether I called up
and said I wanted an appointment...
B: With him specifically.
H: Yeah. And I would drive out every week
to the South Side (B: Mhm hm) to the University of Chicago and have a
session with him. (Pause) He wrote all these notes - none of which I ever saw of course (laughs).
B: So when you were talking (H:
I think that must have...) he did make notes?
H: Oh yeah. He made notes, he made notes.
Urn hmm.
B: And was he tape recording at
that time with you?
H: I can’t remember. He may have.
B: You don’t remember.
H: I don’t remember.
B: Do you remember if you were a research client?
Because many of the clients who came to the Center were asked to participate in research,
and they had to sign...
H: I don’t remember that. I remember mostly that I
sat across the desk from him. (B: Mhm hm) And he was very gentle. And very receptive. He
wasn’t critical. (B: Mhm hm) All things that I had been afraid of.
B: Yes. He wasn’t.
H: He wasn’t.
B: So, it was reassuring.
H: (Nods.) The first time I went in
there my heart was just pounding. (B: Mhm hm) And I thought: Oh, what am I doing? Why am I
going to this man? He’s famous. Why, would he be interested in my (B: Mhm hm) little
problem?
B: Mhm hm, mhm hm
H: I don’t know how long I went to see him. It must
have been for quite some time. And then, I stopped. (Short pause) I sort of
followed his career - then he left the University of Chicago. When?
In the sixties?
B: In the late fifties he went to Wisconsin, (H: Late
fifties.) and then he went to California.
H: Where was he? At Stanford?
B: No. It was an institute. The Western Behavioral Science
Institute I think. (H: Mhm hm) And then The Center for the Studies of the Person.
H: Well then how did you get to be a Rogerian?
(For several minutes there is Barbara’s description
of her background as a psychologist and client-centered therapist. and a brief explanation
of client-centered therapy.)
H: That sort of rings a bell
to me. It does ring a bell, because there had to be a reason why I was so
attracted to it. (B: Yes.) And to him. (B: Yes.) And it had to be because of the book I
read.
B: Yes. (H: Because...) Otherwise how
would you have...
H: I wouldn’t have known...No, I had
to read a book.
B: Otherwise you would have gone to an
analyst.
H: Yes. (Pause) It
fit into what I was all about. (B: Yes.) And what I just described (B: Yes.) as one of my problems
(B:Yes.) at that time. (B: Yeah, yeah.) See...
B: The fearfulness and the
self-effacing...
H: And not worrying about being accepted
by him, (B: Yes.) and having someone listen, who would be accepting (B:
Accepting.) and understanding without being punitive in any way. So, it does fit right
into (B: Mhm hrnm) the need I had at that time.
B: Yes, into the need you had...
H: And it wasn’t a, ah Freudian need
at all.
B: Umhmm.
H: It was a totally different.. ..Well
that’s very interesting. Because now I see that (B: How connected.) the mold.. .(B:
Yes.) That it was a sort of a total thing. (B: Mhm hm) You know?
B: Yes.
H: And! wasn’tthreatenedby it.
Because I was terribly fearful all the time.
B: Yes.
H: I was fearful because I was always
surrounded by people who were so aggressive and tough. Not S. but (B: His
brother.) his brother and sister-in-law and so forth.. .and sisters of mine. (B: Mhm hm)
It was something I didn’t even know because I’d never experienced anything like
it. (B: Mhm hm) So it was a very foreign experience to me, (B: Yeah.) and
I didn’t know how to handle it.
B: Yes.
H: And now that I see, now I remember
what drove me to this particular type of therapy at the time. Because certainly nobody I
knew, knew anything about it. It wasn’t that somebody had suggested it to me. (B:
No.) So it had to be his early book.
B: Yes.
H: But Barbara,, also remember that at
that time psychologists weren’t as accepted.
B: Oh, that’s right.
H:
It was a period where you either had to be a
psychiatrist or a psychoanalyst or else you were totally (B: You weren’t anything.) a
persona non grata at that time.
B: Yes there were only a few
private practice psychologist therapists in the city. You must have read something
that just drew you over there...
H: Oh, there is no question about it. (B:
Yeah.) Because it had to be something that fell into my
needs.
B: Urn hm. That you identified as
something, (H: I mean the fact...) that maybe you could enter into.
H: Right. The fact that I had the courage,
to call and make an appointment... (B: Yes, yes.) (Both laugh.) with
somebody at the University of Chicago who was the leader of a movement. I don’t even
know, where I felt the courage to do it. (B: Yes.) But I got to see him.
(B: Yes, yes. ) That was quite extraordinary (laughs).
B: It really was.
H: I knew you at that time, but I
didn’t know what direction you were going to go. Little did I know you were going to
become a Rogerian therapist in the future! If! could have seen into a globe. . .a crystal ball.
B: But I had no idea. I had no idea. (Pause)
May I ask you some more?
H: Sure. Go ahead.
B: Do you remember if there was an intake
interview?
H: What do you mean "an intake"?
B: Somebody who.... Later at the Center - I don’t know about at what point it was started - someone
would interview anybody who called up for an appointment. The person would come in, and
one of the psychologists on the staff would find out a bit about what the person wanted
and so on.
H: No, I don’t remember that.
B: You don’t remember that at all.
You may have gone directly to him?
H: I went directly to him. I didn’t
have anybody interview me...
B:
So you must have called and said, "May I see
him?"
H:
Because if I had had someone in between.. .that
would have made me very nervous. And again, it would have been the feeling that I
wasn’t being accepted.
B: Yes. (H: You know, that...) So he must
have just received you.
H:
He must have, somehow. I mean maybe through the
interview we had. . .I had. The initial interview probably set it up
for me. I was clever enough to.. .(laughing) to
impress him (laughs).
B: Well.. .the fact that you called and wanted
to see him.. .he was very remarkable in his responsiveness to people. (H: Yeah.) Ah,
let’s see.. .can you recall your very first impression of him?
H: Well, I think I just outlined it.
B: What you said before...
H: Yeah, right.
B: And did that change at all?
H: No. No. What changed was the fact that after awhile, I
can’t remember why, it was that I discontinued my visits or my
sessions with him, I can’t remember that at all.
B: Uhm hmm.
H: Maybe I was feeling better about myself and, and
thought I’d had enough. I just don’t remember. (B: Yes.) I wish I could.
B: It’s hard to remember those
things.
H: Over 40 years.
B: You remember the office and you can visualize the desk?
H: I remember the desk. I remember his sitting behind the
desk. I remember my sitting in front of him.
B: So the desk was between you?
H: Yeah. Um hum.
B: And he made notes...
H: And he made notes. I can’t remember whether
there was... (B: A recording machine.) No, I can’t remember that. There may have
been.
B: There might have been. (Pause) Do
you remember what kinds of responses? You said he did
ask you questions.
H: Yes.
B: Can you?
H: No.
B: You can’t remember the nature of his responses?
H: No. I can’t. They must have been
non-threatening responses.
B: Because you have distinct memory that you were not
threatened.
H: Oh definitely. (B: Yes, mhm hm.) I would never have
gone back if I had thought that he was going to be difficult and hard on me and sort of...
B: Judgmental and critical.
H: That’s right. No.
B: So you don’t remember if he made any
interpretations of your situation. your problems, or you in any way? (Pause)
Doesn’t ring a bell?
H: Well, I’m sure that there was a communication
between us. (B: Oh, yes) But I can’t remember what it was.
B: The nature of it. Would you say you felt understood,
well, by him?
H: Yes. I think that he was very
receptive. And gentle. Uh, and as I said, I felt he was non-judgmental. (B:
Non-judgmental.) Which Is what I needed. (B: Yes.) He actually fitted into the kind of
person I wanted to have listen to me. (B: Mhm hm) Because it took me many, many years
before I could confide in anybody about anything. Maybe my sister. But I tended not to
confide. So I think to fmd someone that I could talk to who would not (B: Mhm hm) only
listen but give me a sense of comfort and a sense of - ah,
what’s the word I want to use? (B: Acceptance?) Acceptance, yes, yeah.
B: Mhm him He
came through then.
H: Yeah - he did come through, yeah. So maybe I did catch his character properly.
B: Yes, it sounds that way.
H: Yeah. For a young girl (laughs).
B: Yes. (Pause) This
might be hard to recall, but, did he come across as sincere?
H: Yeah. Well, think that fits into that
mold. If I hadn’t found that he was sincere, I wouldn’t have continued...
B: You wouldn’t have felt the other
things.
H: No, I would not have been
comfortable with him.
B: Yes. So that was integrated in just the
way he was with (H: Nods) He felt real. (Pause) Do you remember if you asked him any questions?
H: I must have but I
don’t remember. I may have been very limited in my questioning.
B: ‘Cause you were shy?
H: Well I was more or less shy. (Pause) I was, um, I was not shy. If you recall
when you met me. (B: Yeah.) You know, I seemed very outgoing. (B: You
did, oh, yes.) And I was very outgoing in a certain milieu. I’d be
very outgoing. But I still had this part of me that was very hidden, (B: Yes.) and
that was terrified. (B: Mhm hrn) And I think that what he
did was to make me comfortable with my own feelings. (B: Mhm hm) I think that was
very important to me.
B: He made you feel comfortable with your
own feelings, (H: Yeah.) so you could talk about them.
H: Right.
B: Urn, and I gather that you felt - your sense of it is you felt some benefit from the...?
H: Oh I must have. Yes.
B: Mhm hut Would you be able in any way to
describe...?
H: That doesn’t mean that I
didn’t go into analysis years later. (Both
laughing)
B: Yes. Yes. I was going to ask
you. Well, all through one’s life one needs...
H: I know (laughs). Well
by that time he had moved to California (B: Yeah.) or wherever he moved
to. He wasn’t here anymore. And there was another period where I needed some help.
B: Mhm him You saw an analyst then?
H: I saw an analyst because there
wasn’t anybody else. But I’ll tell you. . .And that
analyst eventually committed suicide. I want to say that I never felt
comfortable with that analyst. Never. And to this day I don’t
understand why I continued with him. Then when I heard that he’d committed suicide I
was just devastated. I went to him, I started to go to him.. .Well,
I’d had a very traumatic experience in the birth of my first child. And that’s
when I went. I almost died. I had a terrible thing happen.
B: I didn’t know.
H: Oh it was horrible. It was just
horrible. And after that I needed some counseling. Because I really wanted to have another
child. (B: Mhm hm) But, knowing what I’d already gone through. So it was a very bad
experience for me and I went to see this doctor. I never really perceived that he was a
disturbed man (laughs). In that he would ever
commit suicide. (B: Mhm hm, mhm hm) But, (B: But you didn’t feel entirely...) when I
finally became pregnant with N.. .(Her daughter), in the midst of my pregnancy, my father
and my mother-in-law died on the same day. (B: Oh.) And again I went
through this horrible, terrible terrible experience, emotional experience with an
upheaval. It’s horrible. And I mean my father wasn’t even ill. He just went to
pay a condolence call and dropped dead. You know. And S’s (Husband’s) mother was
sick in the hospital.
B: Incredible.
H: It was just a horror story. I was
pregnant...
B: The same day. You’re pregnant.
You’ve had a traumatic first...
H: That’s right.
B: Wow.
H: I mean, talk about. . ..So
I continued seeing this doctor because I didn’t know what else to do. But, I never
really felt, I never felt as comfortable as I did when I went to see Dr. Rogers. (B: Mhm
hm) Now whether that was because I was younger...(B: Mhm hm) I don’t
know why... (B: Mhm hm) but I never felt good, with this doctor. And yet I didn’t
have - it took me a long time before I had the courage to quit him.
B: Uhmhm.
H: A long time. I think what happens is
that you just.. .Well, what they call the transference. But you have this long thing that
goes on and on and on and on, (B: Mhm hm) and then you get so wrapped up in it that you
can’t let go. (B: Mhm hm) You think...
B: You won’t be able to survive.
H: You won’t
be able to survive. But eventually I let go. I let go because he let go.
B: Uhm hmm.
H: No, he committed suicide actually
before I ever.. .after I had left him.
B: After you had stopped working with him.
(H: Uhm hm) That was a shock . Goodness - to
learn of your therapist killing himself...
H:
I think what happened with me and this Dr. Rogers
situation was that I think in the beginning I was so overwhelmed and so impressed
that someone like him would see me and talk to me. You know - someone
who was the leader of a movement and so forth.
B: Yes.
H: It just blew my mind. (B: Mhm hm) And
even at an early age Ijust said: "How did this happen? How did this incredible thing
happen to me?" You know, that someone at the University of Chicago
really wants to spend some time talking to me, or listening to me.
B: Yes, yes, yes.
H: It was very impressive. (B: Yeah.) And because
it was impressive, I think it helped me sort of project myself the way I
did. (B: Mhm hm, mhm hm)I didn’t want to disappoint him (laughs).
B:
Mhm hm, yes. Just the fact that this impressive
(H: Right.) man wanted to interact...
H:
Why does he want to see me?
B: It kind of boosted your self.., and
also made you...
H: That’s right. Exactly. Exactly.
Exactly.
B: Yeah, but also made you feel like you
want to do it right.
H: Right. Exactly.
B: But he made you comfortable enough so
that you could.
H: True. That’s right. (Thoughtfully.)
It’s very interesting.
B: It’s very
interesting to me. Really. (Both laugh.)
H: Oh, that’s good.
B:
Urn, were there any limitations that you remember
or later became aware of in the way he worked with you or in anything that you thought
might have been harmful for you in that relationship?
H: No.
B: No.
H: No.No.
B: If you can recall; were there any areas of experience,
that is, any problems or issues that you were concerned about at that time that you didn’t
talk about with him? Was there anything you remember holding back?
H: Probably were. But you know I don’t remember what the issues
were.
B: Mhm hm, mhm hm.
H: Because the issues were already so fraught with
problems.. .(B: Mhm hm) of, how do you sustain a marriage when you’re threatened? And
how do you sustain it when you feel like an outsider?
B: Yes.
H: Now that’s a very difficult thing to overcome when
you’re a young woman. You know?
B:
Very.
H: Very difficult.
B: What you’ve suggested is that that
was really an over-riding problem at that point in your life.
H: His brother and I became like sparring
partners. I think he resented the fact that his younger brother married and he no longer
had him as his little...
(A telephone conversation interrupts)
B: Do you have any impression
about the environment of the Counseling Center at all? Do you remember it as a setting
where you saw...
H: No. Because all I really
remember is his office.
B: Mhm hm. You don’t
remember how many sessions?
H: No.
B: You met about once
a week?
H: I think it was about once a
week. I’m pretty sure. Is that the average? About once...
B: It is, yeah. Some people come in more,
but.. .that’s the average.
H: Idon’t remember.
B: And you don’t
remember what length of time...
H: That’s like a blank to me.
B: Yeah. And you don’t
remember why you stopped?
H: No.
B: Let’s see, is there anything else
about the experience at all that you can remember?
H: No. But for me it’s so
interesting. It’s like an umbilical cord. We’re all tied up together. Isn’t
that amazing?
B: Mhmhm.
H: I mean, can you imagine?
I’ve known you since you were 17 years old. (B: Mhm hm) I was a young woman (B: Yes,
yes.) who had not been married too long at that time, and suddenly you’re back here
and we’re discussing Carl Rogers, (B: I know. Isn’t it amazing?) and that I had
been an early, devoted patient of his.
B: Yes. Yes. (H: It is just...)
It’s amazing.
H: It’ll blow your mind! (Laughs)
B: I know. When M (Mutual
friend) said that she thought you had seen Rogers I thought. . ."Wow".
(A phone call interrupts)
B: Well, those are all
my questions. Thank you very much.
H: You’re completely welcome.
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